Low to Middle Income Hardest Hit in CDN Vehicle Prices

The globeandmail reported today that there is a class action lawsuit being launched against automakers and dealers for allegedly charging Canadians 25-35% higher for vehicles sold in Canada when compared to the US. Consumer groups are welcoming the lawsuit.

It is only now through the parity of the dollar that Canadians realize the glaring differences in vehicle prices between Canadian and US dealerships. The article doesn't mention any specific automaker other then Porsche within the article but its suffice to say that not everyone is driving a Porsche nor can they afford one. What about the average joe on a regular salary? I would argue that we are definitely a larger portion of vehicle sales per annum. I set out to find out how much of a difference there actually exists between vehicles here and across the border.

Assumptions:

• Growth since 2002 has averaged -1% in Canada. I assumed no growth in the current fiscal 2007 using 2006 stats from Statistics Canada.


• I used a 2004 study to understand the most popular vehicles purchased in Canada. I assumed this hasn't changed with the exception of Chevrolet that has discontinued the Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire, and Toyota that has discontinued the Echo. I substituted the Chevrolet Malibu and didn't place another Toyota vehicle as I already had a comparison.


• I also assumed that that the % of vehicles purchased by consumers in Canada by make will remain the same (a large assumption i know but they made the analysis easier given information I was able to obtain). I believe once you see the vehicles individuals were buying in 2004, you will see that those models are still quite popular today.

Findings: If Canadians was to continue to purchase vehicles based on the assumptions above, we would have have paid an extra $888 Million dollars between the vehicles in the table presented here. It is also important to note here that this represents only 11% of all vehicles sold in Canada.

The vehicles depicted here are priced an average of $20,586 in Canada while only $15,772 in the US. Honda and Mazda seem to be the worst offenders (Ford owns Mazda). With vehicles that are priced to attract the low to middle income, it is concerning to think that these automakers are pricing vehicles they way they have.

While many Canadians have realized this some time ago, others are only now starting to realize that the automakers have "pulled the hood over our eyes" (pun intended of course). This isn't small change either and both a public inquiry and a class action lawsuit are definitely warranted under the circumstances. Especially with "ethically" responsible manufacturers like Toyota is promote their One-Price policy. Consumers are now the wiser so beware.

My 2 thoughts......

(Again if you interested, let me know if you want me to share my figures via email)

I agree with Denzel.

There is a great scene in one of the best movies I have ever seen, Training Day starring a very bad-a$$ Denzel Washington. Ethan Hawke walks into the restaurant on his very first day on job with the narcotics division lead by Denzel. Denzel is reading the paper and ignores Ethan's questions for the first minute or so only to stare him when he doesn't get the hint.

"90% of what I read in this paper is bullsh!t. I read it because I like to be entertained. If you are not going to let me read the paper then you entertain me rookie." - Denzel Washington.

From the specific use of words, references to culture, ethnicity, or statements from individuals that really have no relevance to the story one can't help but agree with Denzel's character. The point here is, the media contributes to sensationalizing news. Bad news sells and the worse you can make the story or "spin-it", the more people will be involved.

The thing that enticed me to write this was a recent article by Michael Smyth in the Province date Sept 20th, 2007. As someone with experience in the public sector, I find this article interesting but not for the reasons you might think at first glance. Michael Smyth is trying to illustrate the conundrum that NDP leader Carole James is in where she has to publicly advocate against the Liberals and their spending on Highway Improvements (coined "Black-Top Politics") but still agree that "some" of these improvements are necessary. What does that mean exactly? Does that mean everyone agrees that the improvements are needed but choose to oppose them simply because it because tabled by the opposing party? Shouldn't this be about the constituent.

Reading the article again (with a little guidance from me) you realize that what Smyth has creatively done is imply that highway improvements for the purpose of boosting votes near elections is a given and that we should instead focus on the fact that parties politically can't support each other because of "politics" versus the need of the constituents.

What the real truth here is that regardless of what year the project actually proceeds to construction, much time is put into the analysis and design of the project (a process that can often take several years). The process involves consultation with relevant stakeholders, considers environmental impacts (yes, we all have to comply to environmental standards), and most importantly has to make sense. A strong business case that focuses on the economics of the project: a high Net Present Value, a high Benefit/Cost ratio, strong savings from safety implications (fatality, injury, personal property damage), and it has to make sense to our stakeholders. As of recent you also find a focus on greenhouse gas emissions (in the form of reduction by tonnage).

The real point (yes I'm getting to it) is that a project does not simply show up in an election year unless the people behind the scenes believe its a project that needs to be there. The process isn't flawless, but it is defensible by any traditional economic standards. The Gateway project was created much in the same way has a investment window well beyond the next election. Politics aside, Smythe's article is a bit too presumptions and misleads the reader into an interpretation of highway project delivery that is not founded.

My 2 thoughts anyways...

Zoom Challenge - Finished

While the Zoom Challenge has finished (officially yesterday as I didn't account for a 12:00am finish) and I am the guy in second place. I ended up 1880th in the world although it may have been lower as I had neglected to upload my 7' 25" time. If you read between the lines, that also means I was not able to improve on that time prior to today's deadline.

In my eagerness to get there, I ran hard on Monday (but suffered fatigue from the weekend of no activity :P). I did farleks on Tuesday but it was nice and cool so I decided to go for a longer run then usual. Today I could feel that my energy level was not rampant but I still tried to give it my best shot. 2 laps in, I clocked 3' 30", on route to a 7' 00" minute run. However, that's where my energy died and a short 20 second walk followed by trying to force my legs to run faster made a final time of 7' 53" minutes.

So where do we go from here, I will keep trying to break the 7' barrier but without the deadline I able to put a few days of more casual runs in between to give myself a break. I am still addicted to the short intense runs so I will keep anyone reading posted of my ongoing feedback. I will visit Nike+ to see if their are any other challenges I want to get involved.

My 2 thoughts anyways....

Konvict Music

Second concert of the year and it was great. I have never been a huge fan of either Artist (Rihanna or Akon) but much like the JT concert, I can sure appreciate a good "live" performance.

The concert opened with the Rascalz whom I hadn't heard from in years (Remember the patriotic - "Northern Touch"). It was a short set and we missed a few songs given that the show started at 7:30 and that's when they decided to open the doors. We didn't find out seats till a little after 8:00.

When I first heard of the concert, I was wondering who was going to headline. Both Akon & Rihanna have songs on the Billboard charts although Rihanna has exploded with the latest release of her CD, "Good Girls Gone Bad" and hits like "Umbrella" featuring Jay-Z. After listening to both and seeing the demographic in the crowd (much like Justin Timberlake), the cross appeal of these artists between gender and demographics is much the same. Akon may be seen as edgier "reggae-rap" with songs like "Smack that" and numerous references to being a "Konvict". In my opinion, he doesn't have the voice to be convincing of hardcore ghetto rap. Its more melodious, and that's why he often sings the hooks (chorus) to compilations like "Smack That" featuring Eminem. Still he does have a good flow.


Rihanna's performance was great as she gradually revealed more and more of those "legs" that are all edged insured over a million dollars. Her focus was on singing, although she would join her dancers for some minor hip-shaking or walk-abouts around the stage. Her performance live is really good and I was impressed with her vocals. My brother in-law (who owns the CD and wants to propose) knew all the words while I knew most of her more popular hits. Over all its was quite entertaining and she played to the crowd well. Her renditions of her hits were flavoured with more electric guitar to give it a harder sound which the crowd also seemed to appreciate. I would say that while the girls were screaming, the guys were all in awe of her talent (her musical talent of course).

Akon's DJ (DJ Benny I believe) did a great job of hyping the crowd prior to Akon stepping on stage. This is what I feel was missing from the JT concert as the crowd is constantly entertained by a "live" performance even in the absence of the main event. The DJ "spun" current hits by JT, Beyonce, & T.I. and did the traditional "sound-check" to make sure everyone was loud-enough for Akon.

From my perspective, the crowd was ready for Akon as they seemed to erupt as he casually strolled on stage. I enjoyed his performance more from the perspective my wife (also at the concert) is a huge fan so I am more familiar with his work. Again, much like Rihanna, his performance focused on gradually revealing his naked upper-half throughout the concert while throwing "sweaty" towels into the concert. Perhaps I'm to old to appreciate a good sweaty towel anymore as I found the fact people were scrambling for this more disturbing than anything else. The Canucks Jersey that he dawned towards the end of his performance would have been a bargain though and I can definitely see the passion that the Vancouverites feel for their hockey team.

Towards the end of his performance, Akon walked off stage after being told by his DJ that they had been asked to shut down the performance as "Da Time Was Up". After a breif dialogue about going to jail and taking GM place with him, he randomly appeared in the middle crowd. For the next 30 minutes or so, Akon struggled to make his way from left-to-right as the female fans went literally "nuts". I appreciated the fact that he was able to do this for the fans. So many in his position are hands off when it comes to such interactions and choose to remain on stage. It could also be the fact that he is a male artist and does not mind the touch of a thousand females grabbing his body.

Grading:

I give the performance an A. The venue was great; the concert was small and only occupied a quarter of GM place giving it a real intimate vibe with a good view. The artists performed well live and exceeded my expectations of what I was expecting from either of them. What the show was missing was additional theatrics and a larger stage presence. Both artists are singers, not performers, when compared to JT, which I seem to appreciate more from artists in terms of the ability to dance. Concert wise it was well worth it and I liked the fact that I didn't face a 2 hour drive to get home after.


My 2 thoughts anyways....

Nike+ Update

Good run today. Shaved another 6 seconds from my previous best. I have 5 days left within the challenge. My revised goal (yes I don't think I will inherit some brilliant genes between now and then) will be 7' 00".

Can't win them all.

My 2 thoughts any ways...

Nike+ Update

Not a picture of mean but I thought it was funny. A few days of trying to improve my best and I was still somewhat sluggish on the track. So I took my own advice and a few days off.

Today I beat my previous best and ran 7' 31" to the mile shaving 9 seconds from previous record. The Zoom challenge runs out September 20th, and I am a long way from my 6 minute goal. I will be trying my best in the days to come to make strides towards this.

My 2 thoughts anyways...

Is MTV not playing enough Music??

I watched the MTV Awards (or lack of Awards) and I know everyone is weighing in on Britney's performance, the Lee/Rock fight, or Kanye West's rant about being given a chance. While I could care less about most of these (Kanye desearves to be arrogant, his new album sounds great), I was more interested in a comment made by Justin Timberlake.

JT mentioned twice when accepting awards that he would like to see MTV play more music videos. I didn't get it at first, but it got me thinking. There is great deal of interest in reality television now, but is it truly taking over the music airwaves. Remember that "Video Killed the Radio Stars", but is Reality TV killing music videos? Jessica Simpson, Ashley Simpson, So You Think You can Dance, The House of Carters, Gene Simmons and the Family Jewels?? I thought I would find out:

Legend:

Reality - Anything that is based on reality television or close to it. Includes music competitions.

Other related music - Shows related to music but do not contain videos (autobiographies, news on stars etc.)

Music Videos - Countdowns, Top Tens, Music by Genre

TV Shows - OC, Roseanne, etc.

JT is clearly stating the obvious. MTV programming seems more concerned with with music related shows then simply playing music (MTV Live, MTV e2). Reality TV also is the highest with this station as compared to others (Next, True Love, MTV Cribs). Music Videos was a staggering 0%.
You have to give it up for Canadian programming. Overwhelming at 53% is dedicated solely to music video programing (MMM Countdown, MMM Top Tens). A split between TV shows and reality ("Celebrity Fit Club" vs. "MuchMoreMusic Profile") at a mere 20% and no real concern for attacting tv shows.
Country Music Television plays a good mix of music videos but alot of Reba, Roseanne, and Married with Children. I never really understood country but at 6% they aren't interested in reality either.
Finally Much Music, our Canadian Anchor. I am proud to say that it comes a close second in music video content at 50%. Reality television is also moderately high with shows like "So You Think You Can Dance" dominating time slots.

All analysis was taken over a 24hr period on September 12th, 2007.

Now that you think about it, you probably agree. Whens the last time you saw a string of music videos when flipping through the music station instead of being bombarded with tv shows, commercials, reality tv, commercials, and something that was music realted (somewhat). I agree with Justin, where have all the videos gone, or did reality tv kill music videos? I will let you know when myself and the buggles come up with an appropriate song.

My 2 thoughts anyways....

Future Sex Love Show

What: Future Sex Love Show

When: September 8th, 2007.

Why: I was genuinely interested in seeing the former second best boy band member (I always preferred BackStreet Boys) turned hugely successful solo artist.

Where: Tacoma Washington. Couldn't get tickets in Vancouver even though I was on TicketMaster the second they went on (35 seconds is what I read for GM to be sold out).

Who: Myself, My Wife, My Brother In-Law, & Sister In-Law.

Verdict: The man can sing and dance, and move, and perform and any other synonym for dance. My first time in the Tacoma Dome and at first I was a bit skeptical. Unlike GM Place, the setup was circular telling us there would be times when we would see the backs of the performers. The opening act, Good Charlotte, did not disappoint as they made full use of the stage playing to all four corners and doing a great live performance. Its impressive that I knew almost all the songs they played and they really got the crowd (myself included) going.

Justin sent out some decoys to hype the crowd, although we had a great view of where he was coming from and saw him sneak into a box that was wheeled in. To enhance his part of the show, large mesh-like screens were dropped from the ceiling to act as a backdrop. Imagine being able to see the entire performance but close-up images being projected on the see-through screens. I was ripping on Dell (a sponsor of the show) for not having a large screen for the cheap seats, although Tacoma Dome is quite small comparatively. This feature definitely made up for that fact. There was also 4 bars on every corner of the stage for the high rollers.

The show lasted from 8:00 to about 11:10pm. The only other show I have to compare to this is the "Up in Smoke" tour with Dr. Dre, Eminem, Snoop Dogg, and Warren G. While the venue at GM place was better, the FSL Show contained more of the performance element. JT can dance and proved it on stage while actually singing live. The only other difference was that when JT asked people to put their lighters and cellphones in the air, the cellphones outweighed the lighters 50 to 1. At one point of the show, PG 13 would have been appropriate as the dancers became a little burlesque (no actual nudity) but it fit with theme. I also noticed that Justin is a smart guy. He would have a few heavy performances and then play 2 vocal chords while on the piano (or the keyboard, or the guitar) and let his performers do the work. There was also a an intermission about 8 songs in. I knew most the songs, but some of the ballads were beyond my knowledge of his music. The mix of the crowd (as you would guess) was primary females most of whom were in their early teens.

A give the show an arbitrary grade of B+ - essentially I was entertained and only with the thought of driving 2 hours to get home was I looking for the show to finish early. I would give it a higher grade if they had entertainment in-between performances instead of two projection screens where Verizon Mobile was making menu charging people for text messages (by the way, from a business perspective, I think this was ingenious). I am sure this grading will become more defensible as my experience with concerts improve. I am going to Akon and Rihanna this coming weekend.

My 2 thoughts anyways......

Friday Rant...

This was supposed to be posted on Friday...better late then never I suppose.

---------------------

TGIF. Before we hit the weekend though, some bits to munch on....

What makes motorcyclist's think they can do whatever they want on the road?? I'm driving this morning and as usual, since summer's over, its congested on the street coming off the bridge. Here this guy is on his bike weaving in and out of traffic traffic, driving between traffic, driving on the curb or where ever he can squeeze his skinny little tires. What the hell is your hurry! We are getting closer to my turnoff and this loser suddenly leaves the road only to come wailing back on as I am crossing the side streeet. Apparently he didn't realize you can't drive through on that particular street. I follow him to a block within work and the light hits red. Don't let a red light stop you, ride the curb, cut through a corner lot and come out ahead on the following street. I got a friend who apparently does the same thing. I fear for his life but only because I know him.

What makes fish so stupid? I mean I have this Beta fish that is blessed with the longest life I have ever been able to make it. It thrives off neglect. I don't feed it on weekends, I pay attention to it only when I feed it once in the monring, and I get lots of compliments of how I am able to care for it. So the thing poops and the bowl gets dirty. Circle of food. I hope to clean the bowl once a month or before I can barely see the fish swimming around. Last time I go to clean it, I am having a hard time getting the fish transferred to another bowl. I usually do this by grabbing it (I know ruthless) but this time he keeps slipping by. Finally, I cup my hand and the start bring my hand out of the water. Before I can close my hand, the fish circles the bowl a couple of times and jumps straight out of the bowl, over the desk, and hits the ground. Great, so much for the longest fish I have ever had....Crazy thing is that this guy is still alive and after some squirmish grabs, I was able to grab him and put him in my transfer bowl. To avoid this, I finally but a fish net. I tried this new tool out on Friday and I though I was going to kill the little guy...again. He wrapped himself (I use the masculine based on my own bias) in the net so tight I had to dig him out when transferring him to the other bowl. Anyways, stupid fish but I would cry if he dies tommorow.

Now I feel better.

My 2 thoughts anyways...

Stamina.....

The great thing about stamina is that if you push yourself hard enough, you are bound to get better. Over the last two runs, I have accomplished something that I was unable to do before (or at least look like I was asthmatic (no offense intended) while crossing the finish line). I have completed my 1 mile runs (1.6km) without stopping.

I noticed this today while I was running and had just completed by 3rd lap around the track. I realized, it was in me to do one more without taking my usual break. Now I was not trying to shatter my usual best today but just the fact that I was able to complete the run in under 8 minutes and do it without stopping was exhilerating.

There are many things you can do to increase your stamina but remember not to wear yourself out. Firstly, take breaks. For the beginner it sounds easy, for the intermediate its a bit harder. You are challenging yourself everyday and when you come to enjoy running you find it hard not to leave a day without hitting your stride. I have especially noticed this after 3-4 consecutive days of running at lunch and either basketball or volleyball in the evenings, when even my legs feel like that can't go any faster. The trick here is realizing wheren your simply tired versus your legs just needing a break. I will notice then when I run when I know my lungs aren't tired but I can't seem to move my legs any faster. Take your breaks and you will find yourself with renewed energy when you hit your runs again.

Secondly, mix it up. I find I do better if I am changing my running routine. While my goal right now is the fastest mile possible, I will throw in a slower longer duration run here and there. This keeps your muscles lose and engaged as your body is not being trained to shutdown after the first mile. I equate this to evolution. Evolution is a wonderful thing, and if their is one thing I know about evolution, its about making life easier. Human bodies adapt to their surrounding and if yours about being fit, evolution will make no exceptions. Our bodys get strongers and healthier so they don't have to work as hard. The trick is making sure you mind isn't shutting your body down because all you want is the first mile.

Third, don't just run. I have been engaging myself in basketball and volleyball as of recent. I will skip a run some days knowing I will be hitting the court hard that evening. I am competitive by nature and find myself working hard sometimes on the court then I do on my runs. Part of this is the mental game but what I am achieving is a different form of run in my workout. Much like farleks, the short burst of energy that need to come from your legs will do wonders for the explosion you need to gain speed in your run. This type of energy, I find personally, I don't achieve through normal training but its not what motivates me to that brink. Know what motivates you and change your run to gain the speed your need from something that interests you. Trust me, you will have alot more fun.

My 2 thoughts anyways....

UBC - Do the Savings Really Add Up?

UBC recently announced that they would no long be accepting credit cards as a form of payment. This on the account that the University could save upwards of $2.5 Million dollars annually that they can redirect towards general revenue (originally believed to be towards teaching development that was later retracted as a place to direct the savings - Click the title link for the original statement). What follows is a brief analysis of the consolidated financial statements and a comparative of what students (particularly international students) will lose with this new initiative.

Universities are said to better operate as a business so as to understand and realize bigger profits. Revenue sources are generally believed to come from student fees offset by expenses including salary and benefits along with operational costs (maintenance, utilities, etc). However, looking at the consolidated financial statements you realize that student fees are only 17% of UBC's revenue. The commanding portion of revenue sources is formed through government grants and other contracts UBC solicits. Looking on the other side of the balance sheet you see that only 3% of the total expenses are associated with COGS (Cost of Goods Sold - where you would find processing payment expenses). Add to this the fact that UBC (given its volume and size of transactions) is most likely receiving a preferred rate on its processing fees and questions are abound. At $2.5 Million in savings and using 2006 counts for students of 37643 FTE's (Full Time Equivalents), you realize that the rate being charged by the credit card companies has to be around 0.94% on the dollar. Most companies are charged anywhere from 2.0-2.2%. Still, the University has decided that this is a way to save money and how can one really argue when their is no visible downside. You can still transfer funds, make debit payments, or right cheques; all potential expenses to students (not the university) and not to mention annual fees students may already be paying on their credit cards.

As with any comparison, I thought to myself what group is the most effected by the discontinuation of credits cards as a payment method. To understand this, you have to understand why many choose to pay their fees via credit card in the first place. I ignored the fact that this is simply because the funds don't currently exist and parents/students are looking for an additional 30 days. I base this on the following reasons: 1) you would have to pay these fees in 30 days anyways; 2) Tuition is a very large sum and you would incur a sizable penalty if you didn't pay it off; 3) Other forms of payments exists including debit, money transfer, and cheques. The reason most probably here is many realize that the fringe benefits of credit cards are quite enticing. Travel Rewards, points towards goods, and cash rebates are all strong ways in which credit card companies have encouraged consumers to sign up for large annual fees with the promise of sizable return on investment (ROI). This is most evident in Costco where an executive memberships is reimbursed if it doesn't pay for itself via the 2% cash rebate.

If the above is true (based on my assumptions) then the following exercise is quite fruitful in understanding the impact to international students. I use international students for the following reasons: 1) The most popular rewards involve those associated with travel (all major banks have at least one travel reward credit card); 2) International Students have the most to gain from these rewards given the expense of traveling home; 3) International Students was the easiest group to define for this analysis given the information available.

Assumptions:

-Tuition for FTE's is not widely dispersed in range (allows me to use a average).

-The figures represented by the travel reward companies are accurate

-Majority of students who have travel rewards with their credit card choose either aeroplan or airmiles.

-Student/Parents (based on the analysis) would choose a reward (aeroplan) that is faster to redeem

-Students/Parents are traveling home (Round Trip) on Christmas (High Season) between December 20th and January 2nd)

Hard to read so if you interested in a copy let me know. As you can see this group contributes close to $3.2 Million dollars to the UBC coffers (most likely more because international fees are represented in local dollars). If all undergraduate international students used credit cards with travel rewards for flights home on Christmas, close to 17% of them would be able to travel home for FREE (with other subsidizing a portion of their travel).

It begs the question on whether the fees that UBC is trying to save, are actually being more than paid for and allowing certain parents to have their children home for the holidays FREE of charge. It is not worth it to give the parents some breaks given that general revenues at UBC have increased by more than 25% since 2000 thanks to increasing tuition of 2% per year. UBC doesn't seem to think so. Instead they have focuse on a marginal part of their operations and transferred additional expenses to students. They don't see the downside, but that takes some creativity as I have shown above.

My 2 thoughts anyways...

Music on the Run

Top 10 songs Nike+ Users Listen to in their Ipods.

I find this list of no surprise as I have many of these in my Ipod. I would include a little more from the rap genre but I believe this list above represents a better cross-section of some timeless classics with some of new-age broad appeal.

From the Rap Genre some Tunes that I love to listen two (in no particular order):

- Hustlers Ambition, 50 Cent
- Victory, P. Diddy
- Honey (Bad Boy Remix), Mariah Carey (Ft Mase, P.Diddy)
- Black Republican, Nas (Ft Jay Z)
- Breathe, Fabulous
- Firm Biz, The Firm
- Mo Money Mo Problems, Notorious Big (Ft Mase, P.Diddy)

My 2 thoughts anyways...

Running on Vacation

My wife and I recently took some time off to visit family and friends in my hometown. There was a wedding to attend and I hadn't been back since my move to the Lower Mainland. A new worry for me, was the excess food I knew I was about to consume and how I could maintain my fitness throughout this period.

A plus for someone in the new found religion of running is that it is very portable. I packed my runners and Ipod along with my laptop so I could charge and download relevant data. Most of these items I would be carrying anyways so it isn't excess weight. There is no additional cost to join a gym for a week or do drop-ins (shame on you for trying to charge me $10 for a workout in the first place).

A local elementary school nearby provide me with ample room to keep me entertained and the lush grass provided the cushion i needed for my knees. During this particular trip I was not trying to improve on my best mile but rather try to build some additional endurance so my body appreciates the shorter, quicker runs. I logged 3 runs (6.7 km) which is great considered 2 days of the 7 were dedicated to just driving and one of those days involved a wedding.

Since then I have had several days off (unless walking around the PNE counts, and a quick 30m on my elliptical) but still recorded a personal best for the mile today at 7' 41". I logged an additional 1.77km after this run and felt like I could do more but wanted to get a workout in as well. The benefits I realized was not only from maintaining my running while on vacation but from a few days rest before I tried to beat my personal best.

My 2 thoughts anyways...